• Venture Architects Representative John Cain and Neumann Monson PC Architects Project Architect Dwight Dobberstein: Proposed Jail Facility
• Discussion: Cost Estimates for Jail Project 
• Jail Financial Consultant Tony Roetlin: Financial Considerations for New Jail

Chairperson Stutsman called the Johnson County Board of Supervisors to order in the Johnson County Administration Building at 1:10 p.m. Members present were: Charles Duffy, Jonathan Jordahl, Mike Lehman, Sally Stutsman, and Carol Thompson.

Stutsman: I’d like to call to order the Informal Meeting for the Johnson County Board of Supervisors. This is a joint meeting with the Jail Finance Consultant, the County Attorney, the Sheriff, Auditor, Treasurer, Recorder, Venture, Dwight Dobberstein and the Jail Steering Committee, as well as the Board of Supervisors. The meeting is for Thursday, August 10, 2000. Second item on the agenda is a presentation from Dwight Dobberstein, Project Architect for Neumann Monson, Bob Carpenter, Sheriff, and Tony Roetlin, Assistant Vice President for Springsted Associates. I don’t know who is going to take charge this afternoon. It looks like Dwight is coming forward. Turning things over to you, Dwight, then. Thank you.

Neumann Monson AIA Project Architect Dobberstein: Good to be here again. For the most part we’re going to let John Cain talk today about the program for the new facility and some of the site diagrams and he also has a model that we’re going to look at. After he’s done then Tony is going to talk about some of the financing options. I think I will turn it over to John so that we can keep it as short as possible.

Venture Architects AIA Representative John Cain: How much time might I have?

Stutsman: You can have as much time as you need. Whatever you need to get your points across is fine.

Cain: What I’m handing out is a summary document titled Concept and Budget Report. I also have copies for others here in the room who might want one. Some of the illustrations I have are up here and might be harder to read. Thank you again for inviting us to come here and make a presentation today on the Johnson County project. Essentially what we want to do today is bring closure to this part of the project. In other words, present to the Board as well as those who are in attendance, the concept for the building that is being discussed and developed with us and the County staff, particularly the Sheriff and his staff. We want to talk about the building, the elements of the building, and the building program. We want to go through the concept for the building and how it sits on the site that has been recommended by the Planning Committee. How expansion takes place. We want to talk briefly about some of the concepts involved in a modern jail design and things that have been discussed before in words, we want to bring pictures too so there is an understanding of what that involves. We also want to talk about and present a first draft for the project budget. That will be included in this presentation. Then, we also want to talk to the issue of the feasibility of building downtown, as that question did come up last time. We have some information that we’d like to bring to everyone’s attention that may bring closure to the issue or it just may open it up only even more. If you turn to the first page in your document, what you’ll see is this chart. Can you see that? I’ll go through in summary form what is included in the elements of this building and what is being discussed. You can see you all have handouts and it will be easier to read that then what I have up here. The building as programmed, to date, total size is in the range of, mathematically, 122,998 total gross square feet. That’s the building size. Or, as we’ve talked before, roughly a 125,000 square feet building. Included in that are 3 major pieces. There is the jail component, which is 68,818 or 69,000 square feet, roughly 56% of the size of the building. Sheriff’s Department, 41,343, 34% of the building. Then, other pieces, which I will describe in a minute, 12,827 representing about 10% of the building. If we go back and talk about the jail, the key elements for understanding today, and it’s a 256-bed jail, there are 3 pods. Pod A is 100 dormitory beds for minimum-security inmates. Pod B is a 60 cell, 100-bed pod for both medium and maximum-security inmates. These clearly, with the math being 60 cells and 100 beds, some of the cells would be single occupancy, some of them would be double occupancy. There are provisions in the State of Iowa Jail Code that allow for that to happen. Pod C, 33 cells, 56 beds, a special needs pod, special populations that are within the jail that need to have special treatment, special attention. Those likewise are single and double bunked. So, there are 3 pods that make up the building. The other major components, intake release or what we more familiarly call booking, where arrestees are brought in and the paperwork is processed, fingerprints are taken and their picture taken, as you all know in the movies if you will. One item I pull out of that building program, besides the space to store inmate property and staff areas and showers and toilets, there is provision in that part of the building, or, what we’re identifying here as 62 short term seats. In other words, there is space in that part of the building or that department for 62 arrestees to be brought in to the jail, booked, processed, perhaps even have their bail set or go through that process. They are short term holds and then they leave. They will never dress out and never go into and take up a bed in the jail. There was considerable discussion on this issue and it was felt strongly by the Sheriff, that through his processing of arrestees, he can efficiently go through that process without the need to provide housing for them. They can be held short term in this part of the building. So, that’s the purpose of those seats, if you will. They make up both some individual cells for those individuals who may be more incorrigible, more difficult to manage. But, then there are a number of areas that are fairly large that might seat as many as 12 or 20 at a time in an open waiting room such as this. They don’t need to be dressed out. That’s the booking area. The inmate program and activity areas, divided among the 3 pods, there are 3 exercise areas for each of the 3 pods. It can be designed as both an indoor and outdoor area. We can do that within the design. There is a classroom in each of the 3 pods. Then, there are 18 visiting booths or 6 booths per housing pod. There is provision in the program for work release. In other words, those inmates who are signed by the judges to the work release program, they really are processed a little differently because they are issues of contraband, keeping them out of the general population. There is special lockers and processing areas for those inmates, as there will be a few parking spaces on site for them as well. Then, finally, the whole facility support component for the jail, including jail administration, food service, laundry service and then the jail staff areas. So, that makes up the jail. The Sheriff’s Department, besides administration, which is the Sheriff, the Secretary, the Deputy, the Chief. There are several departments that are involved. Detectives, patrol, communications or 911 and the records department. Records also houses all of the jail records in that area, too. Staff training is a major piece of the Sheriff’s Department. We’re talking this morning, the business of running a Sheriff’s Department has changed in the 20 years since his present facility was built. There are many more state mandates and requirements on law enforcement officers. The level of sophistication in terms of understanding technology, computers, etc, the whole issue, not only of crime prevention but crime investigation and solving of crimes is far more sophisticated than it was 20 years ago. Some of that involves onsite training and we are providing space for that. There is also space available for some physical training for staff as well, and that is part of this program. This is a state of the art Sheriff’s Department. It’s intended to last for many more years here in Johnson County. Then, finally, the last and might be the largest from a square footage point of view, though it’s being proposed and built at a very economical price is the large garage that we refer to as fleet operations. There is space in that garage for 40 of the Sheriff’s vehicles. Not only cars, but boats are part of that inventory, snowmobiles etc… or trailers for snowmobiles. All of those things are housed out of the weather and in a controlled environment. Likewise, there is space for 10 vehicles that are involved in some type of crime, that are being held as evidence. Those are also inside this garage that is part of the building. There is a component to the Sheriff’s Department, which is called evidence processing. It’s not noted as a detailed area, but that’s included and it’s important that those vehicles be close to that evidence processing area just to save staff time. The other smaller spaces that are part of the building include a public lobby, which will provide access to the Sheriff’s Department and some of the other agencies that will be in this building. There is also a courtroom that is being envisioned as part of this project and that courtroom will be accessible from the lobby. Civil Defense is a department that will be in the buildings presently in the Law Enforcement Center. The last component, which is defined as Maintenance Facility Support, some of the building maintenance aspects as well as the large mechanical spaces, air handling units, boilers, etc that make up the building and that is included in this 12,827 square feet. That’s a summary, if you will, of the pieces. The next page that you have in your report, though I won’t go through it in detail, will outline for you all the different departments that make up the building, all of their various gross square footages and the total, the same that you saw in the previous page. If one square footage to note out of all of them, the jail housing as a single piece makes up the largest part of the building, roughly 51,000 gross square feet. We presented at the last meeting some drawings, which I apologize were not colored and hopefully would be a little easier for you to see today. Talking about the building, it’s siting and how it will be organized. Can you all see that from here? At least you can see the piece that’s in your envelopes. Again, you’ll recall from last week, the discussion and the recommendation of the Planning Committee was to choose the site that is at the intersection of 218 or 380 and Melrose Avenue, the northwest quadrant, if you will, and just east of Secondary Highways. This, in concept, is the building of how it sits on the site. From the building program, as we discussed, there is the Sheriff’s Department, which is shown in yellow, there are the 3 housing pods, which are shown in this orange color and then the jail support piece, which is to the back of the site. Keep in mind, Melrose is on the south and north is up on this particular plan. For the public and those that would see the building, from the east if you will or to the south, it’s principally an office building, an office building in appearance. The Sheriff’s Department is here. The courts will be on the front of the building or towards the south side, the side that the public will see. That’s where the main entrance will be and that’s where the public parking will be. Further back and from then on, it’s mostly staff and some inmates that require parking. There is a staff entrance on the eastside of the building. There is an inmate entrance to the back, which I will explain more the reason why it’s there. The sally port will be to the back and then all deliveries to the building will be along the back as well, or along the north side. If you’re familiar with the site and we talked about it briefly last time, this is a cornfield right now. There are heavy trees along this side here, all within the property line. Then, there is a large gully, if you will, that divides this flat area to the Secondary Highways to the west. Our goal is to pull the building as far to that edge as we can, so that we can accomplish a couple of things over on this side. One, we want to try to preserve as many of those trees as we possibly can to provide a natural screening effect from both the Highway, as any residential areas to the east, that might look this direction. If they were able to see through it, they would see mostly an office building if you will. The Jail is to the opposite side. But, that’s one of the goals we are hoping to do in terms of the siting of the building. So, public to the south, then all of the various services coming in at the different points. The way the building is designed, which is now shown in this second board, and I’ll simply illustrate a few of the concepts being discussed. Most of them are relate to staff efficiency and just general layout. Again, as we talk more this afternoon, we’ll be talking about issues of being all on one level versus being downtown in a multilevel design. You begin to see the pieces that I just mentioned. The Sheriff’s Department is this portion here, Fleet Operations is to the back. The housing pods are right here. This is the dormitory pod. It’s a single level building with an officer stationed in the middle. This is the medium maximum or pod B, which is a 2-level design, officer stationed in the middle and then the special needs is the closest one to the highway. Support areas are to the north. The booking area, the master control component, which is noted in red here, which really controls the security of the entire building, controls inmates coming in through this door, the work release inmates and sees down these corridors, so it’s very staff efficient. Let’s talk about what this is about. I brought a few illustrations to help you. This was something that we had brought to our interview when we met back in April. There have been references several times to a facility called Oneida County, which is in Rhinelander, Wisconsin. This is a model of a portion of that building. Hopefully, between say the use of this model and some photographs I am going to use will help to illustrate the various concepts. Who wants to see it first? You’re our audience. I think I need to show it to you. You’re really good decision makers.

Stutsman: OK. All right.

Cain: Maybe if I can Dwight to help me just to hold this here I’ll try to point out some photographs. The issues of a modern jail deal with not only cost efficiency, but safety and security. Not only for the inmates, who make up most of the population of the building, but also the staff and we’re very concerned about that. We’re also concerned about staff efficiency. What you are seeing in this model, in the diagrams before, it’s a 2-level design where the cells are around the perimeter. There is an officer stationed that’s in the center of the plan. There is glass around that. There is a corridor that wraps it in more glass, security glazing. We take the pod and it’s divided up into smaller units of cells. It allows us to classify inmates, allows us to separate the population in to smaller, more manageable pieces. There may be a person over here who doesn’t like someone else in the jail. We can separate them so it does not become a management problem for the Sheriff’s staff. One of these typical areas looks like this picture, where it’s a 2-level design. So, we’ve been talking before about 2 levels. There is a main level and then there is a mezzanine level or an upper level. The cells stack on top of each other. This is a cell. This is a door into a cell. There are no bars, if you will. The glass is here so that the officer who is in the control center can see what is going on, not only in the dayroom areas that are in front where the inmates spend most of their time, but also in those cells as well. Through the use of different levels of lighting in the building, all within code and all at a comfort level, we can control what the inmates see versus what the staff sees. The staff will be able to see clearly from the control center in to these areas. The inmates really will not be able to see out because they will be looking at a mirror coating or a reflection. That offers us the ability to class, to have both men and women in this housing area. The men will never see the women as they walk past that hallway. This is typical of one of those dayroom areas that we were just talking about. There’ll be some other handouts later this afternoon that will have pictures of smaller versions of these pictures. So, that would be, let’s say our pod B, which is illustrated there. By the way, these 2 pictures are from a county jail called Ashland County, which is in northern Wisconsin. This is the officer’s station. The station is elevated slightly so that from a seated position they can see into these areas. Then, in fact, the picture that you saw, the green and the orange, this is what he or she is looking at through that glass. So, in fact, even with this photograph, which it’s not retouched if you will, they can see and you can see, as well, the ability that they have to see into these different areas. That really equates into, not only staff efficiency but staff control. That now, instead of a jail where an officer has to literally go up to a door and look inside, or actually go into a room to see what is happening. This officer can sit on that chair and almost spin around slowly and literally see everything that is going on in that housing pod.

Jordahl: Maybe you could flip things back and forth, like we can process and they can see, too.

Cain: Here’s the control center. The door control to the cells are in this panel here. There may be other monitors that are required. But, this is literally the view that the officer will see from that control center in the 2-story design. The dormitory design could look like this. Now, this comes from the Oneida County project, where again, this is that officer station, the same glazing that we talked about. These are door controls for individual areas in the unit. In fact, this picture was taken standing here looking in that direction. This is dormitory construction. The inmates that are assigned to this pod sleep on bunk beds and have tables that are fastened to the floor with a fixed bench. Otherwise, it’s a large room, just as the room we’re in here. It has either vinyl flooring on the floor or a painted concrete floor. The walls are a concrete block. We have to put a security ceiling in so that they, from the bunk bed, can’t get up and hide things in there. But, it’s dormitory construction and it’s very economical. In your jail, the 256-bed jail, there will be 100 beds of that type of construction. So, again, as we’ve talked a number of times before, not everybody who will be in this jail, first of all will ever see a cell or a housing. Of those, 40% will be in a dormitory setting, not a cell. We’re trying to address the fact that there are a variety of people who do find themselves arrested and brought to this jail I a variety of charges. The housing would reflect that variety.

Jordahl: I see the bunk beds. How many bunk beds are in the same room?

Cain: In this particular design, these are 8’s and 4 bunk beds and 8 bunk beds, so 8 and 16 inmates. I think we have similar break up in the particular pods that we are talking about here as well. The question arises, what does a building like this look like? I did bring one picture and that again is of the Oneida County project. I’ll just leave it, set it up here so everybody can see it. You will have a picture of this in your material as well. This is the front entrance to the building and the main elevation that most people will see. What you’re looking at in this photograph, this is the main entrance here, the canopy, the doorway. The height of this piece right here is in part due to the lobby space. There is also a courtroom in this building, too. It sits right here adjacent to the lobby. The Sheriff’s Department is this part of the building. It’s fairly simple, it’s a brick box. It has a couple of different colors of brick that make up the elevation. There are some windows that are in and that’s pretty much about it. It does extend some distance and turns a corner. But, it’s modest. The jail portion, which is this part of the building over here, is likewise a brick box. In this case a couple of different colors of brick. There are no windows directly to the outside from the cells themselves, where an inmate in the cell would see his or her friend, if you will, outside, or actually be able to look the other way. We quite a bit of natural light into those housing areas by building in this case, they might look like shoe boxes or what we refer to as clear story or skylights, on the roof of the building. That brings natural light into those housing areas so that if I go back to the model for minute, in either of these pods, there will be large skylights here. That brings a nice amount of natural light directly into the housing areas, into the dayroom areas, as well as then into the cells. Not only do we meet all of the code requirements for natural light, but I think it… The other options that become available to us, many of the state requirements establish frosted glass on windows. The option is, instead of being able to see some natural light above you, you’re looking at a frosted window in a cell and that doesn’t seem real humane in the experiences that we have seen. So, that’s what the building in Oneida looks like and I illustrate it, only to make the point that it’s not a Taj Mahal, it’s not a Cadillac, it’s a functional building, but one which can be attractive to it’s surrounding neighbors. To dispel the idea that there is any razor ribbon or fences that go around this property, this can be a good neighbor to the surroundings. The last board I will illustrate, we talk about expansion and how that occurs on this site. The part that I outline with my finger is the first phase we would envision, if, in the future, this building were to expand. Housing would expand towards the ravine and could be doubled in size. The Jail support would likewise expand at the same time to the west. The Sheriff’s Department would expand to the east. There would be work required to secure available site here, because we now would be getting closer to the ravine. Fill would have to be brought in to make that possible. But, as we talked before at the last meeting, we also want to make sure that we’re providing enough space here that if the ravine were filled in there still could be other County buildings built out of this site as well. So, we’re trying to stay far enough from this edge so we can retain some of that screening, but keep it pushed far enough so that we can maintain expansion for you in the future, whatever that might be. This might be a time to stop and answer any questions that anyone might have with respect to the design or the siting of the building on Melrose.

Stutsman: Are there any questions, first of all from Board Members and then from the general public, too?

Jordahl: Just wondering, the construction, I think the mention had been made, I don’t know if it was Dwight or who, that we might do the majority of the landscaping fill site preparation kind of things for future possible expansion at the time of the initial construction. Has that been waylaid or has that no longer?

Cain: Well, I think, in an effort to manage the cost of this project construction, we are carrying some money for what we would describe as masquerading or grading. But, not enough to take the entire ravine and address that. There may be good reasons to invest that kind of money and make us do that kind of work now. But, not in the budget that we’ll be presenting in a minute, have we accommodated that.

Jordahl: I’m not suggesting that it is reasonable, I just remember hearing something about that and wondered where that stood.

Cain: Certainly, from a long range planning perspective, if the County does believe that there would be a time when they would want to build here, this would be the time to make that investment.

Stutsman: Charlie, did you have a comment or question?

Duffy: I was going to ask, we’re talking about 56 acres or 53 acres?

Cain: Dwight, can you help me with the acreage?

Dobberstein: 53.6.

Lehman: That included where the Secondary Roads is at then, too?

Dobberstein: That’s Secondary Roads. The area we’re talking about here is about 12 acres.

Duffy: The area itself. But, there are 50 some acres on that side.

Dobberstein: On the north side of the road.

Duffy: Yes.

Stutsman: I saw a couple of hands. Could you identify yourself for the County Auditor?

Robert Lea Grimm: Can you answer when you took soil borings for this?

Cain: They have not been taken.

Grim: They have not been taken.

Cain: No they have not.

Grim: What purpose does the water reservoir serve on the north side of this project?

Cain: Can somebody help us with that question? I’m not aware of a water reservoir.

Dobberstein: There is a small pond.

Grim: What function does it serve?

Dobberstein: It’s not related to this project. I don’t know if Secondary Roads uses it for anything. I think it’s just a small pond.

Grim: It’s not a lagoon for the septic system of the County home is it?

Dobberstein: No.

Grim: OK. I’ll have a couple more later on. I think you have a nice structure and you’ve put some effort into it.

Dobberstein: OK.

Grim: But, you can not design a building without soil core tests.

Cain: That would come in future phases of the project.

Grim: It doesn’t start that way. It starts with soil core tests.

Cain: The County would need to authorize money to spend to take those tests and it might well be, it’s not my judgment, but you’re absolutely right. Before accurate estimates can be made etc., we are making some assumptions in the budgeting of this building that we can put it on conventional spread footings. But, it’s been our experience that a single story building such as this can sit on most types of soil. We’ve not had that problem in past projects.

Lehman: It’d be somewhat the same height as Secondary Roads is now, so you’re looking at the same general, but you do need to find that out.

Cain: Yes absolutely.

Lehman: It wouldn’t be that far fetched from what is out to the west of the now Secondary Roads.

Cain: He has an excellent point. It would not be unreasonable, at some point this fall, to take some test samplings, some test borings on this site, to know, in fact, what the compressive strength of the soil is.

Stutsman: Claudine, did I see your hand?

Claudine Harris: Yes you did. Claudine Harris. I’m interested in the proximity of the road that comes into all the parking area where all the vehicles to Chatham Oaks. Could you indicate where Chatham Oaks is in relationship to the entrance to all the parking.

Cain: Thank you. It is right here.

Harris: Directly across?

Cain: We are directly to the north.

Harris: I know the buildings are opposite.

Cain: Yes and there are 2 entrances. I apologize that this drawing does not show it. Here is does.

Harris: Well I see them here.

Cain: Here it does, yes it does.

Harris: But, then according to that first page, then it would look like the entrance to all the parking is to the east of Chatham Oaks, so they won’t really see all the driving in and out of dozens of vehicles. This is what I am interested in.

Cain: Yes not really I don’t believe.

Harris: I would like to see that entrance as far east as possible.

Cain: OK. It’s certainly a possibility and something that should be noted. Yes.

Stutsman: Good point.

Cain: Yes. May we envision that, and we have money for landscaping and other modest amenities in the budget, that the front of this be a front yard and be treated as such. With landscaping, there may in fact be some burming or hilling along the front so that if it’s felt appropriate, that even the housing part here might be concealed. It doesn’t take a lot of dirt to elevate up to such height and some landscaping, to even screen this part of the building from the public that goes by. I’m not suggesting that this is an unattractive building when I say that, but if issues of concern arise during the process, the further phases of the process, that that can be done as well. We’ve done that on projects and it has been very effective.

Stutsman: Your picture, this Oneida facility, there is just no indication whatsoever that that’s a jail.

Cain: No there’s not.

Thompson: It looks like a school.

Stutsman: What traditionally you think of as a jail, you look at that and if you took that name off you’d almost look at that as a high school. It looks like the high school I graduated from.

Cain: It could be easily looked at as being a school. Some might argue it’s even more attractive than some schools that are being built these days. But, I don’t want to make any inferences or references or open that can of worms that I’ll apologize for.

Pat Harney: I have a question. Now, as I understand, that’s been designed to spread out and not up. Is that correct?

Cain: That’s correct yes. The budget that you will see, and very much the reason part of the discussion about even recommending the site, is that it does not require those additional dollars in foundation work. As well as in taking the structural roof construction and building it as a floor load for future construction going vertically.

Lehman: Also, reduce the need for elevators and security.

Cain: No elevators in this building. There are no stairs in this building, other than what you saw in this one picture that go up to the mezzanine level. Now, I qualify that. There will be a mechanical penthouse area on the top of the building and there will be stairs that will lead up to that for the maintenance people. Those costs become unnecessary in a design such as this.

Jordahl: What about durability of the building? I’m thinking in terms of the roof, snow, water, leakage, sky lights. We’re in a snowy climate here just like Wisconsin. Are we designing a flat roof here?

Cain: This will not be a flat roof. The most economical roof is a, get my terminology right, is a sloped roof. It doesn’t have great pitch to it. We will not be to a point where you’ve seen standing metal seam roofs that exist. There’s really no reason for that kind of height in the building. The Code mandates that there be a certain slope to this roof, so long as the contractors meet the marvelous set of drawings that Dwight and our firm will put together. That water will pitch to that drain.

Jordahl: The water will, yes, what about the snow?

Cain: The snow?

Jordahl: Part of the idea of a pitch roof is that the snow falls off, slides off.

Cain: Yes.

Jordahl: The snow damming effect or the ice damming effect doesn’t happen. I’m not an engineer either, but I don’t much like flat roofs.

Cain: Yes. There is potential that some drifting could occur on the roof, particularly because of the piece that is elevated up. That is a possibility.

Jordahl: Isn’t there a gain, too, in energy efficiency, if you have the dead air space or ventilation of an attic, as opposed to just having the roof right next to the occupied space?

Cain: I don’t know. Dwight, can you answer that question? I’m not a mechanical engineer. I think our goal would be to try to minimize the volume of building that we would have to condition.

Dobberstein: One thing we generally rely on, engineers do a life cycle analysis of that. Over the years, every time they’ve done that they come back with the same answer and that is the most economical roof is one where the installation is on top of the roof and they don’t have to provide that ventilated space.

Jordahl: Well, most economical yes, but again, as we’ve talked to consultants about this I keep hearing the statement that, well, we can’t really plan beyond 20 years. I beg to differ about that. I think we need to. You cannot make accurate predictions about exactly how many people are going to be in Johnson County in 20 years, but my prediction is that I want the jail to last more than 20 years. So, if we can say that the roof is economical but our time frame of designing the thing is 20 years and then its OK if it falls into the ground that’s not OK. We ought to try to try and look at the life cycle of the building being 100 years and not 20 years. It seems to me like a peak roof would do that better. The Courthouse is still standing for example.

Cain: Your point is well taken. We can certainly, as the project continues to move forward to do some of that life cycle costing that both of you have alluded to. It is a large building in footprint, and whereas the Courthouse is fairly small in size and you can have a pitched roof, with shingles or whatever type of material it would be. To try to achieve that here you can imagine how high that single point would be. Then we would end up with ridge lines through this building and I think sufficed to say that today, at this particular point, the type of budget we’re gong to be talking about I think many of these different ideas are possible. I think we’re discussing issues of location and budget and size. The type of roof design hopefully will be a challenging issue for us this coming spring in some of the things. Maybe we can bring that issue back at that point. I don’t know, Jonathan, I’m just thinking of the timing of the question.

Jordahl: The timing is significant to me in that it speaks to the question of, what is our horizon of planning? Are we talking about 20 years or are we talking about a larger period?

Cain: No. This is with proper maintenance and recognizing that boilers do have a life of so long. Roofs have a life of only so long and buildings do require ongoing maintenance, as any of our houses do. The guts of this building is 100 year building. The structure of the walls, the exterior, our budget recommends a brick building, if not a drivet or stucco building or a pre-cast concrete exterior building. Our recommendations haven’t always been with our clients. I apologize if anybody here is in the pre-cast concrete industry. But it would be our recommendation that this be a brick building.

Lehman: I think your point is you don’t want to pinch pennies up front if it’s going to cost you more than that down the road.

Jordahl: Yes. I don’t want to make a decision that saves money now, as Mike said, that is actually conditioned by either being only a 20 year planning framework. If a different decision would be made based on a longer expectation of the building’s life, then we should at that.

Cain: Well, I think for example, in this budget is included money that provides for penthouse construction that sits on top of the building in Oneida and houses all the major air handling equipment and boilers. They’re all enclosed in the building, and people can work on them in the building, and the equipment is in the building. That cost money, but it’s included in the budget we’ll discuss. It’s not air packaged air handling units that are sitting on the roof of this building that have a life of maybe 10 or 15 years and you have to replace them. That’s not the kind of building that we’re talking about or the budget we’re developing. That boiler may have to be replaced some day just because of the natural life span of a boiler. But, we’re not talking about roof top units. This is not commercial grade building. This is an institution building that’s intended to last a considerable long time with appropriate maintenance.

Stutsman: OK John, are you ready to move on then.

Cain: I think so, yes.

Stutsman: OK. Are you done with this part of the presentation?

Cain: Yes I am. Because I think we want to then get to the numbers part, which I believe is the next page in your…

Stutsman: Great. I don’t know if that’s great or not but we do need to move on.

(Continued in Part 2)